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	<title>Comments on: Top Ten Sci-Fi Shows</title>
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	<description>playing with fire</description>
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		<title>By: Watching The 4400 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Greatest Sci-Fi Shows - Where is the 4400?</title>
		<link>http://overacandle.com/?p=908&#038;cpage=1#comment-25451</link>
		<dc:creator>Watching The 4400 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Greatest Sci-Fi Shows - Where is the 4400?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:35:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overacandle.com/?p=908#comment-25451</guid>
		<description>[...] Hat-tip to Over a Candle. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hat-tip to Over a Candle. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: quenton clarke</title>
		<link>http://overacandle.com/?p=908&#038;cpage=1#comment-25353</link>
		<dc:creator>quenton clarke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 16:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overacandle.com/?p=908#comment-25353</guid>
		<description>An excellent sci-fi show, cut short like Firefly, that I would say belongs on the list -above/instead of- SG1 and Heroes is ODYSSEY 5.  For a fan of RPGs it was fantastic - the cast were very much PCs.  It had numerous components blended together in a tasty concoction including:

1) time-travel
2) save the world stakes
3) paranoia about the government
4) they-walk-among-us uber-paranoia
5) excellent party bickering and divergent goals and methodologies

The series was canceled too early, but it completed an entire series (to include a climactic season finale).  Get it from NETFLIX or buy the entire series on DVD.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excellent sci-fi show, cut short like Firefly, that I would say belongs on the list -above/instead of- SG1 and Heroes is ODYSSEY 5.  For a fan of RPGs it was fantastic &#8211; the cast were very much PCs.  It had numerous components blended together in a tasty concoction including:</p>
<p>1) time-travel<br />
2) save the world stakes<br />
3) paranoia about the government<br />
4) they-walk-among-us uber-paranoia<br />
5) excellent party bickering and divergent goals and methodologies</p>
<p>The series was canceled too early, but it completed an entire series (to include a climactic season finale).  Get it from NETFLIX or buy the entire series on DVD.</p>
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		<title>By: jbnimble</title>
		<link>http://overacandle.com/?p=908&#038;cpage=1#comment-25274</link>
		<dc:creator>jbnimble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 22:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overacandle.com/?p=908#comment-25274</guid>
		<description>I understand your point about Heroes.  I was willing to include it in this discussion (as opposed to Buffy) simply because they gave the psuedo-science explanation for the powers of its characters.  But I&#039;m willing to concede that it&#039;s barely sci-fi, at best.

And I also agree that X-Files lasted too long.  Indeed, I think one of the strengths of both B5 and BSG is that they were willing to end the show when the story had been told, instead of trying to milk it for all its worth, and a lot more besides.  But those first few seasons were superb.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand your point about Heroes.  I was willing to include it in this discussion (as opposed to Buffy) simply because they gave the psuedo-science explanation for the powers of its characters.  But I&#8217;m willing to concede that it&#8217;s barely sci-fi, at best.</p>
<p>And I also agree that X-Files lasted too long.  Indeed, I think one of the strengths of both B5 and BSG is that they were willing to end the show when the story had been told, instead of trying to milk it for all its worth, and a lot more besides.  But those first few seasons were superb.</p>
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		<title>By: Externalized Evil</title>
		<link>http://overacandle.com/?p=908&#038;cpage=1#comment-25260</link>
		<dc:creator>Externalized Evil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 21:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overacandle.com/?p=908#comment-25260</guid>
		<description>Now to the complaining...  (You didn&#039;t think I&#039;d forget!?)

//9. Firefly (I loved it, but it only had 13 episodes.)

I wasn&#039;t as taken with the show as many, but I think it was very good.
I&#039;d rank it higher... I&#039;m not willing to hold a show&#039;s shortness against it.  (Though if a show &quot;jumps the shark&quot; I will hold that against it.)

//8. Heroes (1 season is good. Let’s see where it goes.)

Ditto.  I have some complaints about the show I might get off my chest sometime, but not your comment.

I&#039;d put this in the same genre as Buffy.  Buffy was explicit about magic being behind what&#039;s going on.  Heroes, IMO, just shot for a  &quot;sufficiently advanced rationale.&quot;

//7. Star Trek: The Next Generation (Good, but it wasn’t a risk-taking. //It had a built in fan base.)

I agree with everything but &quot;Good.&quot;  
How about &quot;Fair&quot;
&quot;Slightly foxed&quot;?
If, like the author of the article we&#039;re pulling in &quot;meta&quot; points to rank the shows on, I&#039;d ding STtNG for holding back TV sci-fi.  It&#039;s one of the reasons too many people think of sci-fi as &quot;Technobabled cliche.&quot;

//6. Farscape (Muppets in space! Come on, this was a scary good //show.)

Oh, I wish it really was muppets in space... don&#039;t tease.

//4. Star Trek (For it’s time, an amazing show.)

I will interpret that as a back-handed blow at the time and agree without reservation. :)

//3. The X-Files (Who doesn’t love a good mystery lasting several //years?)

As a thriller/intrigue I&#039;d rank this show very high.  (&#039;Cause I like some sci-fi in my thriller.)  As sci-fi I&#039;d put it considerably lower, mainly due to it&#039;s attempts to draw-out both it&#039;s over-riding plot and the characterizations.  It was getting very thin and stretched.  I was beginning to expect a LotR crossover.

//2. Battlestar Galactica (The best re-imagining ever.)
//1. Babylon 5 (This show demonstrated how to do a five-season //story-arc correctly. For me, it redefined how television should be //done.)

No complaints.  I think most sci-fi is intrinsically poorly suited to TV.  (As compared to books.)  But not space opera.  I&#039;d be tempted to rank B5 and BSG highly just for showing the public that SO doesn&#039;t have to be like Star Trek.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now to the complaining&#8230;  (You didn&#8217;t think I&#8217;d forget!?)</p>
<p>//9. Firefly (I loved it, but it only had 13 episodes.)</p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t as taken with the show as many, but I think it was very good.<br />
I&#8217;d rank it higher&#8230; I&#8217;m not willing to hold a show&#8217;s shortness against it.  (Though if a show &#8220;jumps the shark&#8221; I will hold that against it.)</p>
<p>//8. Heroes (1 season is good. Let’s see where it goes.)</p>
<p>Ditto.  I have some complaints about the show I might get off my chest sometime, but not your comment.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d put this in the same genre as Buffy.  Buffy was explicit about magic being behind what&#8217;s going on.  Heroes, IMO, just shot for a  &#8220;sufficiently advanced rationale.&#8221;</p>
<p>//7. Star Trek: The Next Generation (Good, but it wasn’t a risk-taking. //It had a built in fan base.)</p>
<p>I agree with everything but &#8220;Good.&#8221;<br />
How about &#8220;Fair&#8221;<br />
&#8220;Slightly foxed&#8221;?<br />
If, like the author of the article we&#8217;re pulling in &#8220;meta&#8221; points to rank the shows on, I&#8217;d ding STtNG for holding back TV sci-fi.  It&#8217;s one of the reasons too many people think of sci-fi as &#8220;Technobabled cliche.&#8221;</p>
<p>//6. Farscape (Muppets in space! Come on, this was a scary good //show.)</p>
<p>Oh, I wish it really was muppets in space&#8230; don&#8217;t tease.</p>
<p>//4. Star Trek (For it’s time, an amazing show.)</p>
<p>I will interpret that as a back-handed blow at the time and agree without reservation. <img src='http://overacandle.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>//3. The X-Files (Who doesn’t love a good mystery lasting several //years?)</p>
<p>As a thriller/intrigue I&#8217;d rank this show very high.  (&#8216;Cause I like some sci-fi in my thriller.)  As sci-fi I&#8217;d put it considerably lower, mainly due to it&#8217;s attempts to draw-out both it&#8217;s over-riding plot and the characterizations.  It was getting very thin and stretched.  I was beginning to expect a LotR crossover.</p>
<p>//2. Battlestar Galactica (The best re-imagining ever.)<br />
//1. Babylon 5 (This show demonstrated how to do a five-season //story-arc correctly. For me, it redefined how television should be //done.)</p>
<p>No complaints.  I think most sci-fi is intrinsically poorly suited to TV.  (As compared to books.)  But not space opera.  I&#8217;d be tempted to rank B5 and BSG highly just for showing the public that SO doesn&#8217;t have to be like Star Trek.</p>
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		<title>By: Externalized Evil</title>
		<link>http://overacandle.com/?p=908&#038;cpage=1#comment-25256</link>
		<dc:creator>Externalized Evil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overacandle.com/?p=908#comment-25256</guid>
		<description>Dr Who:  I&#039;ve seen some of the &quot;new&quot; (2005?+) Dr. Who and it&#039;s not stupid.  Mostly.  Cheesy but imaginative, and mostly not-stupid.  It may sound like I&#039;m damning with faint praise, but for TV sci-fi I think that&#039;s very good.  And though episodic, the show does a nice job of weaving some continuing threads through the series.  

&quot;The Doctor&quot;, a character I expected would be very annoying, is actually pretty good.  Even given his manic nature he&#039;s refreshingly sane, rational, and genuine for a heroic-adventure TV character.   By &quot;genuine&quot; I mean given sufficient and reasonable provocation he panics rather than quips.   He strongly prefers talking to fighting, and fairly often uses the run-away-then-think approach, which I find refreshing.  (If you want to see The Doctor, and the &quot;Doctor Who,&quot; I expected see the first couple of episodes of the 2nd season.)

The show has also done a better job at avoiding the &quot;Weekly Monster Hunt&quot; feel that X-Files or Buffy often had.  Maybe even better than Babylon 5.

It may be hard to compare directly to BSG or B5.  In the same way it might be hard to judge between a nicely diverse anthology and a novel.  Though, where I to do so, I&#039;d rank the &quot;B&quot; shows as better.  

Hmm... even given it&#039;s problems toward the end B5 did a stellar job at maintaining itself.  I think the X-Files went downhill quickly past the 2nd or 3rd season.  (IIRC).  I&#039;ll be surprised if the new Dr. Who makes it as far as B5 without lowering it&#039;s standards quite a bit.  (Maybe it being a BBC series will save it from &quot;selling out&quot;.)

I&#039;ll have to look at the 4400.  I saw a few episodes and it didn&#039;t impress me, but from what you say I didn&#039;t give it enough of a chance.  Same goes for Farscape.

NB:  A very enjoyable BBC sci-fi show you may want to look at is &quot;Ultraviolet.&quot;  Watched it over a couple nights not long ago.  Short series - well under a dozen episodes, IIRC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr Who:  I&#8217;ve seen some of the &#8220;new&#8221; (2005?+) Dr. Who and it&#8217;s not stupid.  Mostly.  Cheesy but imaginative, and mostly not-stupid.  It may sound like I&#8217;m damning with faint praise, but for TV sci-fi I think that&#8217;s very good.  And though episodic, the show does a nice job of weaving some continuing threads through the series.  </p>
<p>&#8220;The Doctor&#8221;, a character I expected would be very annoying, is actually pretty good.  Even given his manic nature he&#8217;s refreshingly sane, rational, and genuine for a heroic-adventure TV character.   By &#8220;genuine&#8221; I mean given sufficient and reasonable provocation he panics rather than quips.   He strongly prefers talking to fighting, and fairly often uses the run-away-then-think approach, which I find refreshing.  (If you want to see The Doctor, and the &#8220;Doctor Who,&#8221; I expected see the first couple of episodes of the 2nd season.)</p>
<p>The show has also done a better job at avoiding the &#8220;Weekly Monster Hunt&#8221; feel that X-Files or Buffy often had.  Maybe even better than Babylon 5.</p>
<p>It may be hard to compare directly to BSG or B5.  In the same way it might be hard to judge between a nicely diverse anthology and a novel.  Though, where I to do so, I&#8217;d rank the &#8220;B&#8221; shows as better.  </p>
<p>Hmm&#8230; even given it&#8217;s problems toward the end B5 did a stellar job at maintaining itself.  I think the X-Files went downhill quickly past the 2nd or 3rd season.  (IIRC).  I&#8217;ll be surprised if the new Dr. Who makes it as far as B5 without lowering it&#8217;s standards quite a bit.  (Maybe it being a BBC series will save it from &#8220;selling out&#8221;.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll have to look at the 4400.  I saw a few episodes and it didn&#8217;t impress me, but from what you say I didn&#8217;t give it enough of a chance.  Same goes for Farscape.</p>
<p>NB:  A very enjoyable BBC sci-fi show you may want to look at is &#8220;Ultraviolet.&#8221;  Watched it over a couple nights not long ago.  Short series &#8211; well under a dozen episodes, IIRC.</p>
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		<title>By: jbnimble</title>
		<link>http://overacandle.com/?p=908&#038;cpage=1#comment-25255</link>
		<dc:creator>jbnimble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overacandle.com/?p=908#comment-25255</guid>
		<description>I thought about including Buffy on my list.  It was a terrific show.  But I agreed with your thinking...  It&#039;s not really sci-fi.  It was a genre show, to be sure, but the genre wasn&#039;t sci-fi.  

I did think about DS-9, but I couldn&#039;t bring myself to include three Star Trek shows.  Still, I think there is a good argument to be made there.

You&#039;re probably right about Heroes, too, but I had trouble thinking of more shows to include.  I put it above Firefly simply for having gotten to finish it&#039;s story arc.  And I do think the first season ended strong.  It started a bit weakly, as I nearly stopped watching it after the first couple of episodes.  But I did think it picked up.

And I agree, too, about the BSG ranking.  B5 probably would have had a stronger ending if JMS and crew knew for certain there would be a fifth season.  Then the truncated ending to the Shadow War and Earth&#039;s civil war could have been lengthened and developed more fully.  I am completely prepared to switch these two if BSG ends strongly.  It&#039;s probably good that they are starting this season with the intention of it being the last.

Anyway, thanks for the comments!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought about including Buffy on my list.  It was a terrific show.  But I agreed with your thinking&#8230;  It&#8217;s not really sci-fi.  It was a genre show, to be sure, but the genre wasn&#8217;t sci-fi.  </p>
<p>I did think about DS-9, but I couldn&#8217;t bring myself to include three Star Trek shows.  Still, I think there is a good argument to be made there.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re probably right about Heroes, too, but I had trouble thinking of more shows to include.  I put it above Firefly simply for having gotten to finish it&#8217;s story arc.  And I do think the first season ended strong.  It started a bit weakly, as I nearly stopped watching it after the first couple of episodes.  But I did think it picked up.</p>
<p>And I agree, too, about the BSG ranking.  B5 probably would have had a stronger ending if JMS and crew knew for certain there would be a fifth season.  Then the truncated ending to the Shadow War and Earth&#8217;s civil war could have been lengthened and developed more fully.  I am completely prepared to switch these two if BSG ends strongly.  It&#8217;s probably good that they are starting this season with the intention of it being the last.</p>
<p>Anyway, thanks for the comments!</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://overacandle.com/?p=908&#038;cpage=1#comment-25245</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2007 18:51:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://overacandle.com/?p=908#comment-25245</guid>
		<description>I was AGHAST that they left off X-Files, especially since Lost isn&#039;t a sci-fi show any more than Alias, or even Buffy. And, if we get to include those shows as well they both trump Lost.

As much as I am a Firefly devotee, I&#039;m not sure that it was on long enough to make an impact. Ultimately I might include Deep Space 9 instead, which was fantastic before it went into its dotage.

I don&#039;t think Heroes merits a mention at all; it&#039;s just one season of a big concept backed by lazy writing. Maybe in a year or two it&#039;ll qualify. In any event, I agree that 4400 is definitely higher on the list, on the merits of the first two seasons alone.

I&#039;m on the same &quot;mea culpa&quot; boat for Dr. Who; I guess it deserves a spot just for staying power, no?

BSG stands to creep into the #1 spot if they close strongly. I always felt like the pace at the end of B5 left a little to be desired - an entire season of denouement?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was AGHAST that they left off X-Files, especially since Lost isn&#8217;t a sci-fi show any more than Alias, or even Buffy. And, if we get to include those shows as well they both trump Lost.</p>
<p>As much as I am a Firefly devotee, I&#8217;m not sure that it was on long enough to make an impact. Ultimately I might include Deep Space 9 instead, which was fantastic before it went into its dotage.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think Heroes merits a mention at all; it&#8217;s just one season of a big concept backed by lazy writing. Maybe in a year or two it&#8217;ll qualify. In any event, I agree that 4400 is definitely higher on the list, on the merits of the first two seasons alone.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m on the same &#8220;mea culpa&#8221; boat for Dr. Who; I guess it deserves a spot just for staying power, no?</p>
<p>BSG stands to creep into the #1 spot if they close strongly. I always felt like the pace at the end of B5 left a little to be desired &#8211; an entire season of denouement?</p>
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